General Discussion: The Dead Celeb Thread


Show original post
bob1503
bob1503 avatar

220 posts since 18/6/06

9 Apr 2013 12:16
The death of someone as controversial as Thatcher is always going to bring out the worst in people. People (especially the bigots on Facebook) seem to forget in their jingoism that even something that is celebrated, such as the right of people to buy their council house effectively ended social housing. People also rant about the unions having the Uk in a stranglehold in the 1970s and eulogise her for ending this but forget that Thatcher's Britain wasn't as amazing as they look through their rose tinted spectacles at. The number of people that had their mortgages foreclosed upon and lost homes, ended up bankrupt etc was terrible when interest rates hit 17%. Entire communities lost the manufacturing and mining jobs upon which they relied, were forced onto benefits and now Thatcher's legacy, Cameron, is demonising people for being reliant on support from the state a generation later as there hasn't been a replacement for these traditional industries. Somehow people are expected to believe that unskilled, low paid jobs such as working in a call centre is progress.

People rant about the price of their utilities in 2013 but they were privatised on her watch. She and Reagan with their support for Milton Friedman's policies destroyed democracy in many countries and ushered in juntas and despots like Pinochet.

The death of a person is always a loss in one shape or other. I remember growing up in Thatcher's Britain in the 80's with mixed emotions. The Teachers' Strikes were great and some have done very well out of her policies. However whether we like it or not, her interview with Woman's Own in 1987 when she declared "there is no such thing as society", sums up her legacy. A government of millionaires who with Goebbals like precision are targeting the NHS and public sector as though they are the enemy, yet crapping on about wanting to emulate education systems in countries like Finland, where there is a high level of public service and taxes are higher to pay for the state to support people through healthcare and education.

I met her once. I served her while I was in my shit summer holiday job as a student. She was fucking rude, talked to us all as if we were morons. Fair enough it was deepest Hampshire and the gene pool can be small there but the girl who was behind the counter with me has gone onto become a doctor. Even Paul Weller wasn't as rude!
phelen
phelen avatar

6274 posts since 16/8/06

9 Apr 2013 12:53
She stood for individual greed and laissez-faire fundamentalism at the expense of all other things. She and Reagan('s administration) were at the spearhead of most of the crap we're dealing with now - the massive defecit spending to support their free market dogma at the expense of community and the poor. She sold off the family silver and did everything she could to destroy society to encourage us all to act as money-seeking automatons.
That had the superficial appearance of working, but was in fact all funded by a North Sea Oil and credit bubble.
The unions were out of control, and so there were some benefits to what she did, but to me that's a bit like saying Hitler* did some great things to deal with the problems around dealing with disabled people in the community.

EDIT:

Plus through policies such as anti-union legislation, poll tax, selling council houses, privatisation of national industry and massive deconstruction of Britain's social wealth (e.g. NHS, public transport), she deliberately annihilated any area of British life that was built around community, responsibility to others, collaboration, shared destiny.
Two quotes from her sum it up: "There's no such thing as society" "Economics are the method; the object is to change the heart and soul."
The fragmented culture Britain suffers today (Cameron's 'broken Britain') - the anti social behaviour, the selfishness and greed, the lack of cohesion and responsibility - is a direct result of her obsession with uncontrolled competition and the way she gave it to the country. She has done Britain enormous damage, knowingly and without compassion, to support her ideal of a ruthless, dog-eat-dog world.
She also supported Pol Pot, General Pinochet and to a lesser extent the Apartheid regime of South Africa.
RickRude
RickRude avatar

2437 posts since 13/1/12

9 Apr 2013 13:18
Maggie was not a nonce cunt
Trystero
Trystero avatar

1510 posts since 1/8/07

9 Apr 2013 14:31
are you posting on Wigan World now phelen? Puzzled

seriously, why not post your own thoughts rather than plagiarising other people's from WikiAnswers and Reddit? (I thought the above post read like some kind of copypasta so Googled a couple of stock lines…)

at least attribute stuff if you're going to copy and paste it verbatim

Mr 88 wrote: Laughing out loud love Brixton

last night was great fun - saw some people I know on the Daily Mail website earlier Laughing out loud
CovOne
CovOne avatar

8564 posts since 17/8/04

9 Apr 2013 18:05
Media blackout on the protests, I think it got one line on the BBC news. Their story on the divide in Yorkshire had 2 people praising her and then 1 guy from a miners welfare against.

No surprise really.
deuce
deuce avatar

13155 posts since 21/1/08

10 Apr 2013 00:31
One Sunday recently while staying in London I took a stroll in the gardens of Temple, the insular clod of quads and offices between The Strand and The Embankment. It's kind of a luxury, rent-controlled ghetto for lawyers and barristers; there is a beautiful tailor's, a fine chapel, established by The Knight's Templar (from which the compound takes its name), a twee cottage designed by Sir Christopher Wren, and a Rose Garden, which I never promised you.

My mate John and I were wandering there together, him expertly proselytizing on the architecture and the history of the place, me pretending to be Rumpole of the Bailey (quietly in my mind), when we spied in the distant garden a hunched and frail figure, in a raincoat, scarf about her head, watering the roses under the breezy supervision of a masticating copper. "What's going on there mate?" John asked a nearby chippy loading his white van. "Maggie Thatcher," he said. "Comes here every week to water them flowers." The three of us watched as the gentle horticultural ritual was feebly enacted, then regarded the Iron Lady being helped into the back of a car and trundling off. In this moment she inspired only curiosity, a pale phantom dumbly filling her day. None present eyed her meanly or spoke with vitriol and it wasn't til an hour later that I dreamt up an Ealing Comedy-style caper in which two inept crooks kidnap Thatcher from the garden but are unable to cope with the demands of dealing with her and give her back. This reverie only occurred when the car was out of view. In her diminished presence I stared like an amateur astronomer unable to describe my awe at this distant phenomenon.

When I was a kid Margaret Thatcher was the headmistress of our country. Her voice, a bellicose yawn, somehow both boring and boring – I could ignore the content but the intent drilled its way in. She became leader of the Conservatives the year I was born and prime minister when I was four; she remained in power till I was 15; I am, it's safe to say, one of Thatcher's children. How then do I feel on the day of this matriarchal mourning?

I grew up in Essex with a single mum and a go-getter Dagenham dad. I don't know if they ever voted for her, I don't know if they liked her; my dad I suspect did, he had enough Del Boy about him to admire her coiffured virility, but in a way Thatcher was so omnipotent, so omnipresent, so omni-everything that all opinion was redundant.

As I scan the statements of my memory bank for early deposits (it'd be a kid's memory bank account at a neurological Nat West where you're encouraged to become a greedy little capitalist with an escalating family of porcelain pigs) I see her in her hairy helmet, condescending on Nationwide, eviscerating eunuch MPs and baffled BBC fuddy duddies with her General Zodd stare and coldly condemning the IRA. And the miners. And the single mums. The dockers. The poll-tax rioters. The Brixton rioters, the Argentinians, teachers; everyone actually.

Thinking about it now, when I was a child she was just a strict woman telling everyone off and selling everything off. I didn't know what to think of this fearsome woman.

Perhaps my early apathy and indifference are a result of what Thatcher deliberately engendered, the idea that "there is no such thing as society," that we are alone on our journey through life, solitary atoms of consciousness. Or perhaps it was just because I was a little kid and more interested in them Weetabix skinheads, Roland Rat and Knight Rider. Either way I'm an adult now and none of those things are on telly anymore, so there's no excuse for apathy.

When John Lennon was told of Elvis Presley's death he famously responded, "Elvis died when he joined the army" – meaning, of course, that his combat clothing and clipped hair signaled the demise of the thrusting, Dionysian revolution of which he was the immaculate emblem.

When I awoke today on L.A. time, my phone was full of impertinent digital eulogies. It'd be disingenuous to omit that there were a fair number of ding-dong-style celebratory messages amidst the pensive reflections on the end of an era. Interestingly, one mate of mine, a proper leftie, in his heyday all Red Wedge and right-on punch-ups, was melancholy. "I thought I'd be overjoyed, but really it's just… another one bites the dust…" This demonstrates I suppose that if you opposed Thatcher's ideas it is likely because of their lack of compassion, which is really just a word for love. If love is something you cherish it is hard to glean much joy from death, even in one's enemies.

Perhaps, though, Thatcher "the monster" didn't die this week from a stroke; perhaps that Thatcher died as she sobbed self-pitying tears as she was driven defeated from Downing Street, ousted by her own party. By then, 1990, I was 15, adolescent and instinctively antiestablishment enough to regard her disdainfully. I'd unthinkingly imbibed enough doctrine to know that, troubled as I was, there was little point looking elsewhere for support; I was on my own. We are all on our own. Norman Tebbit, one of Thatcher's acolytes and fellow "Munsters evacuee," said when the National Union of Miners eventually succumbed to the military onslaught and starvation over which she presided, "[We] broke not just a strike, but a spell." The spell he's referring to is the unseen bond that connects us all and prevents us from being subjugated by tyranny. The spell of community.

Those strikes were confusing to me as a child. All of the Tory edicts that bludgeoned our nation, as my generation squirmed through ghoulish puberty, were confusing. When all the public amenities were flogged, the adverts made it seem to my childish eyes fun and positive, jaunty slogans and affable British stereotypes jostling about in villages, selling people companies that they'd already paid for through tax. I just now watched the British Gas one again, it's like a whimsical live action episode of Postman Pat where his cat is craftily carved up and sold back to him.

"The News" was the pompous conduit through which we suckled at the barren Baroness, through newscaster wet-nurses, naturally, not direct from the steel teat. Jan Leeming, Sue Lawly Moira Stewart – delivering doctrine with sterile sexiness, like a butterscotch-scented beige vapour. To use a less bizarre analogy: If Thatcher was the headmistress, they were junior school teachers, authoritative but warm enough that you could call them 'Mum' by accident. You could never call Margaret 'Mother' by mistake; for a national matriarch, she was oddly unmaternal. I always felt a bit sorry for her biological children Mark and Carol, wondering from whom they would get their cuddles. "Thatcher as mother" seemed, to my tiddly mind, anathema; how could anyone who was so resolutely Margaret Thatcher be anything else? In the Meryl Streep film, it's the scenes of domesticity that appear most absurd. Knocking up a flan for Dennis or helping Carol with her algebra or Mark with his gunrunning are jarring distractions from the main narrative: woman as warrior queen.

It always struck me as peculiar, too, when the Spice Girls briefly championed Thatcher as an early example of Girl Power. I don't see that. She is an anomaly, a product of the freak-conomy of her time. Barack Obama interestingly said in his statement that she had "broken the glass ceiling for other women." Only in the sense that all the women beneath her were blinded by falling shards. She is an icon of individualism, not of feminism.

I have few recollections of Thatcher after the slowly chauffeured, weepy Downing Street cortege. I'd become a delinquent by then, living on heroin and benefit fraud.

There were sporadic resurrections; to drape a hankie over a model BA plane tailfin because she disliked the unpatriotic logo with which they'd replaced the Union Jack (maybe don't privatize BA then) or to shuffle about some country pile arm in arm with a dithery Pinochet and tell us all what a fine fellow he was. It always irks when right-wing folk demonstrate in a familial or exclusive setting the values that they deny in a broader social context. They're happy to share big windfall bonuses with their cronies; they'll stick up for deposed dictator chums when they're down on their luck; they'll find opportunities in business for people they care about. I hope I'm not being reductive, but it seems Thatcher's time in power was solely spent diminishing the resources of those who had least for the advancement of those who had most. I know from my own indulgence in selfish behavior that it's much easier to get what you want if you remove from consideration the effect your actions will have on others.

Is that what made her so formidable, her ability to ignore the suffering of others? Given the nature of her legacy, "survival of the fittest" – a phrase that Darwin himself only used twice in Origin of Species, compared to hundreds of references to altruism, love and cooperation, it isn't surprising that there are parties this week in Liverpool, Glasgow and Brixton – from where are they to have learned compassion and forgiveness?

The blunt, pathetic reality is that a little old lady has died, who in the winter of her life had to water roses alone under police supervision. If you behave like there's no such thing as society, in the end there isn't. Her death must be sad for the handful of people she was nice to and the rich people who got richer under her stewardship. It isn't sad for anyone else. There are pangs of nostalgia, yes, because for me she's all tied up with Hi-De-Hi and Speak and Spell and Blockbusters and "follow the bear." What is more troubling is my inability to ascertain where my own selfishness ends and her neoliberal inculcation begins. All of us that grew up under Thatcher were taught that it is good to be selfish, that other people's pain is not your problem, that pain is in fact a weakness and suffering is deserved and shameful. Perhaps there is resentment because the clemency and respect that are being mawkishly displayed now by some and haughtily demanded of the rest of us at the impending, solemn funeral are values that her government and policies sought to annihilate.

I can't articulate with the skill of either of "the Marks," Steel or Thomas, why Thatcher and Thatcherism were so bad for Britain, but I do recall that even to a child her demeanour and every discernible action seemed to be to the detriment of our national spirit and identity. Her refusal to stand against apartheid, her civil war against the unions, her aggression towards our neighbours in Ireland and a taxation system that was devised in the dark ages, the bombing of a retreating ship – it's just not British.

I do not yet know what effect Margaret Thatcher has had on me as an individual or on the character of our country as we continue to evolve. As a child she unnerved me but we are not children now and we are free to choose our own ethical codes and leaders that reflect them.
krisricey
krisricey avatar

1603 posts since 24/3/12

10 Apr 2013 00:32
Jawdropping!
Mr 88
Mr 88 avatar

2501 posts since 1/4/09

10 Apr 2013 02:49
Brand Ubercool read
Dee
Dee avatar

9655 posts since 22/11/07

10 Apr 2013 03:17
well put
gawkrodger
gawkrodger avatar

6832 posts since 4/11/08

10 Apr 2013 09:25
re-defining definitions of hypocrisy

MuayThaiPimp
MuayThaiPimp avatar

7498 posts since 10/8/11

10 Apr 2013 09:47
Yeah disgusted by so much of the ridiculous praising of her! I feel her death is a sign summer will be good!
trailofdavid
trailofdavid avatar

5675 posts since 14/8/09

10 Apr 2013 09:48
More from Moz

The difficulty with giving a comment on Margaret Thatcher's death to the British tabloids is that, no matter how calmly and measured you speak, the comment must be reported as an "outburst" or an "explosive attack" if your view is not pro-establishment…

…Thatcher was not a strong or formidable leader. She simply did not give a shit about people, and this coarseness has been neatly transformed into bravery by the British press who are attempting to re-write history in order to protect patriotism. As a result, any opposing view is stifled or ridiculed.
sydneyking
sydneyking avatar

3301 posts since 26/9/09

10 Apr 2013 10:00
Just interested to know how old people were when Maggie was PM?
robii
robii avatar

18857 posts since 8/9/06

10 Apr 2013 10:00
Surprisingly measured statement from Morrissey. Makes you question the truth behind his "outbursts" in the tabloid press over the past few years
Trent
Trent avatar

1668 posts since 18/1/09

10 Apr 2013 12:09
sydneyking wrote: Just interested to know how old people were when Maggie was PM?

Completely irrelevant when you look at social demographic or location. I'd imagine (or hope) that most of the people offering their opinions have understood from their parents the reasons for the visible hatred of Thatcher.

My hometown was specifically geared to an industrial or mining workbase. I watched friends parents celebrating in their back garden with neighbours they had never previously spoken to. That's how much it means to them.
MuayThaiPimp
MuayThaiPimp avatar

7498 posts since 10/8/11

10 Apr 2013 12:18
Yeah Trent, same party in street near me
sydneyking
sydneyking avatar

3301 posts since 26/9/09

10 Apr 2013 12:22
Trent wrote: I watched friends parents celebrating in their back garden with neighbours they had never previously spoken to. That's how much it means to them.

Oh fuck off, did you watch people's grandparents celebrate when the elderly german couple who lived in the neighborhood popped their clogs? Fascist! you're talking bollocks pal. I asked the initial question as a matter of interest and for no other reason than that
stelfox
stelfox avatar

8481 posts since 11/3/09

10 Apr 2013 12:24
I don't remember tatcher being in power, john major is my earliest memory

both my parents like her
smith
smith avatar

9739 posts since 5/5/04

10 Apr 2013 12:26
My hometown in the south didn't rely on pit or anything she privatised so a lot of people loved her for repeatedly cutting income tax rates during her leadership. Had no idea the country was suffering myself. I was just getting into lego when she resigned.

Can understand the hatred of alot of people though having read the history books.
rural
rural avatar

16483 posts since 26/9/06

10 Apr 2013 12:28
All I remember is my cat died the day Major came into power Sad csb