General Discussion: Politics thread


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Crackajack
Crackajack avatar

7971 posts since 21/4/05

13 Dec 2019 18:51
Genuine question - Why is it better to try and achieve left-wing aims from outside the EU, rather than from within it?

Isn't a preferred aspiration to have a democratic domino-effect or even genuine revolution within the existing political union structure, to facilitate legislation meeting those aims universally across a huge area?

Not sure how we could ever hope to stand up to corporate/capitalist interests outside the EU, and I accept that the EU seeks to serve these interests (but to a lesser extent than the Tories) at the moment.

Dee
Dee avatar

12029 posts since 22/11/07

13 Dec 2019 19:23
TIMDOT wrote: @Fudge: come the revolution you'll be put in a spliff.
Dee wrote: complete mong. Laughing out loud
She's from a working class family and got into Cambridge. She also has diabetes, which affects your feet. State of you.

The media made Corbyn the antichrist. People did care about what Labour was saying but ultimately felt dismissed. RIP NHS

Laughing out loud You sound like a barrel of laughs.


TIMDOT
TIMDOT avatar

876 posts since 6/8/14

13 Dec 2019 19:53
Lexit lost BTW. I wasn't trying to gloat.

When Greece elected Syriza and wanted to default on loans from the EU they enforced strict sanctions and austerity. Nationalisation is part of social democratic reforms and the EU can block any attempt at nationalising any industry.
The idea of Fortress Europe (the restriction of the freedom of movement that has killed thousands) has legitimised the spread of xenophobic racist parties across the EU (Italy, Hungary, Poland, Germany, Netherlands etc..). Coast guards waiting in a boat next to drowning people have to be given the clear to save them or be faced with prison.

The EU is a neoliberal institution whose main purpose is to protect trade. We could have left with labour in power and nationalised things but nope.

Standing up to capitalism has to be international and must come the bottom up. It can't be done incrementally once every 5 years. We don't have time. A new system is needed. Uprisings around the globe, present and future, must put forward revolutionary demands.
Judgemelt
Judgemelt avatar

26 posts since 27/9/19

posted 13 Dec 2019 21:25, edited 13 Dec 2019 21:25
Corbyn was always good as a campaigner from the peripherals for decades. He was never a natural leader unfortunately, used only as a vessel by lansman/mcdonell/mccluskey to shift the labour far left in reaction to new labour and lite left Ed. Worked briefly in engaging new members and younger voters.
Sadly poor media performances, right wing bias in the media, and over course the perception of not tackling anti semitism quick enough, dithering on brexit as a natural eurosceptic, purging a more pluralistic view, ended in the downfall, despite popular policies.
I don't think there will be labour government for at least ten years unless Boris seriously fucks up.
With pidcock, a supposed heir to corbyn now gone, the pool narrows. Jess Philips? Rayner? Long-Bailey? Potentials, but don't think they've got it to defeat the tories. I think the only way will now be a shift to a more central, open position if they're serious about not going into total oblivion.
illwill
illwill avatar

4137 posts since 17/5/04

13 Dec 2019 22:37
Thank fuck Timdot is back to save us from Fudge's retardation.
R
R avatar

13296 posts since 17/5/03

13 Dec 2019 22:51
Crackajack wrote: Genuine question - Why is it better to try and achieve left-wing aims

agreed
Crackajack
Crackajack avatar

7971 posts since 21/4/05

13 Dec 2019 23:15
R wrote:
Crackajack wrote: Genuine question - Why is it better to try and achieve left-wing aims

agreed

As within society there are people who are so entitled and selfish they try and sue their own parents for more inheritance? Creates a strong argument for redistributionist policies tbh
illwill
illwill avatar

4137 posts since 17/5/04

13 Dec 2019 23:27
Crackajack wrote: people who are so entitled and selfish they try and sue their own parents for more inheritance

One of the best Fuk moments ever Laughing out loud
R
R avatar

13296 posts since 17/5/03

13 Dec 2019 23:45
like no ones ever been a stupid teenager
R
R avatar

13296 posts since 17/5/03

13 Dec 2019 23:49
what I really like though are public spending policies based on utopian, undeliverable, pie in the sky 'principles'. The naivety running through society, particularly through social media, is incredible.
Crackajack
Crackajack avatar

7971 posts since 21/4/05

13 Dec 2019 23:58
Bit rude of me to use a personal post from a long time ago to make a point, I apologise. I think the above re spending applies to both main parties! Labour suffered more for it though.
R
R avatar

13296 posts since 17/5/03

14 Dec 2019 00:04
Crackajack wrote: Bit rude of me to use a personal post from a long time ago to make a point, I apologise. I think the above re spending applies to both main parties! Labour suffered more for it though.

over-promised massively. entirely unrealistic and as I said, utopian.
R
R avatar

13296 posts since 17/5/03

posted 14 Dec 2019 00:21, edited 14 Dec 2019 00:21
national debt is still massive as a percentage of a GDP, clearly in part a result of horrific Labour financial policy (and bloated, inefficient public services), along with macro factors, but the rationale from the left is spend, spend, spend. I don't believe anybody wants massive inequality and everyone wants good public services, but sense seems to have gone out the window.

there's still a massive witch hunt on wealth, profit is a bad word, but the incredible thing that many seem to ignore is the massive reliance on very few to contribute SO much in terms of tax revenues. there's a relatively fine line between living in a somewhat free and hopefully prosperous country, contributing and paying for the privilege of doing so, and it being so financially onerous that it's pointless to stay. ambition and entrepreneurship should be encouraged, not punished. the left always speak of the wealthiest paying 'a bit' more and I think to some extent, there wouldn't be a huge amount of resistance towards this, but a small increase wouldn't touch the sides. I also believe that regardless of taxation levels, it would always be a 'bit more', a constant chipping away.

I really don't know what the answer to the massive social issues may be. We are restricted by reality and vaguely responsible spending. Resources are finite and aside from economic growth/increased GDP leading to higher tax revenues and the possibility to borrow more by maintaining a similar ratio, I've got no idea what can be done.
MLI
MLI avatar

5173 posts since 6/10/09

14 Dec 2019 03:01
Don't sweat R, The Communist Vampire took another common sense stake through the chest today Cool
nothingelseworked
nothingelseworked avatar

3560 posts since 21/2/10

posted 14 Dec 2019 10:05, edited 14 Dec 2019 10:05
R wrote:
Crackajack wrote: Bit rude of me to use a personal post from a long time ago to make a point, I apologise. I think the above re spending applies to both main parties! Labour suffered more for it though.

over-promised massively. entirely unrealistic and as I said, utopian.

Utopian LMAO. The outlined spending as a % of economy was still lower than Germany (stronger economy than us), France (only 1 behind us in GDP) and other strong econs - guess they're Utopias by your definition?

And many of the policies have been implemented in so many IMF advanced economies including Germany, France, Sweden, Finland, South Korea, etc. inb4 "bUt VeNeZuElA!" - completely different thing.

Edit: Tories been in power ramping up national debt for 9 years and it's still Labour's fault LDSgl;ksefhdgjkrweh ye jkgehr j teyt ufhdfjhfdsjh hahahahshaghahdhashahagahhagsjhahsgjahfurjt pause jsadhjhjahahahahaahabdjahaj54
fudge.dredd
fudge.dredd avatar

1698 posts since 15/12/12

14 Dec 2019 11:12
Judgemelt wrote: Corbyn was always good as a campaigner from the peripherals for decades. He was never a natural leader unfortunately, used only as a vessel by lansman/mcdonell/mccluskey to shift the labour far left in reaction to new labour and lite left Ed. Worked briefly in engaging new members and younger voters.
Sadly poor media performances, right wing bias in the media, and over course the perception of not tackling anti semitism quick enough, dithering on brexit as a natural eurosceptic, purging a more pluralistic view, ended in the downfall, despite popular policies.
I don't think there will be labour government for at least ten years unless Boris seriously fucks up.
With pidcock, a supposed heir to corbyn now gone, the pool narrows. Jess Philips? Rayner? Long-Bailey? Potentials, but don't think they've got it to defeat the tories. I think the only way will now be a shift to a more central, open position if they're serious about not going into total oblivion.

I said pretty much this a few pages back and also predicted a Labour annihilation in response to EB’s post about how the liberals are winning again.
fudge.dredd
fudge.dredd avatar

1698 posts since 15/12/12

14 Dec 2019 11:20
The bottom line is labour need to root out the momentum and Antisemite element - hard to do as they also rely on the Muslim block vote.

Keir Starmer should be the next leader - look at the alternatives….. my god.
fudge.dredd
fudge.dredd avatar

1698 posts since 15/12/12

14 Dec 2019 11:21
R wrote: what I really like though are public spending policies based on utopian, undeliverable, pie in the sky 'principles'. The naivety running through society, particularly through social media, is incredible.

This is why this result was such a shock for people who just live in the social media bubble - their echo chamber made them think the entire country thinks like them when it clearly doesn’t..
R
R avatar

13296 posts since 17/5/03

posted 14 Dec 2019 11:24, edited 14 Dec 2019 11:24
fudge.dredd wrote:
R wrote: what I really like though are public spending policies based on utopian, undeliverable, pie in the sky 'principles'. The naivety running through society, particularly through social media, is incredible.

This is why this result was such a shock for people who just live in the social media bubble - their echo chamber made them think the entire country thinks like them when it clearly doesn’t..

100%. I don't actively use social media but the bubble that it creates for many of those who do use it, despite it seeming like it may be an accurate representation of society, is one of the worst things about it.
R
R avatar

13296 posts since 17/5/03

14 Dec 2019 11:25
nothingelseworked wrote:
R wrote:
Crackajack wrote: Bit rude of me to use a personal post from a long time ago to make a point, I apologise. I think the above re spending applies to both main parties! Labour suffered more for it though.

over-promised massively. entirely unrealistic and as I said, utopian.

Utopian LMAO. The outlined spending as a % of economy was still lower than Germany (stronger economy than us), France (only 1 behind us in GDP) and other strong econs - guess they're Utopias by your definition?

have you seen the comparative levels of government debt?