I don't think imperialism is based on religion? And also Hitler was far more of a racist - he hated the jewish race (as well as slavs.. and communists).

not saying it was by any means a religious war.

but religion definitely played a big part in some of the events that took place.

It's impossible to be rational with people who believe *without shadow of doubt* in the irrational.

I mean, you know what you believe is true, but you can't prove it, any of it, you just believe it or feel it because of what you read in a book that was written a few years ago or because of what you've been told. You have to understand how super frustrating it is for someone on the other side who believes only in reality? Wouldn't take it personally, you're hardly alone.

But surely it is possible to accept the belief of others as a fact and discuss the rest of it rather than attacking. Both sides know in the end the base difference of belief vs non-belief isn't going to change. Nothing in this thread is going to change my base belief in god, just as no atheist is going to start believing. I think it'd be disrespectful and insulting for either side to think that they might be able to change the other in that way.

yeah thing is, I am non religious, I am on "the other side".
I don't get frustrated and i don't try to hypocritically press my ideas onto others, I just try stay open minded and appreciate other peoples point of view and the benefits of religion (and the numerous negative aspects of it).
that's why i'm surprised at the attitude of all the other atheists in the thread.

nobody said it was started by religion, obviously it wasn't.

i'm saying that the mass killing of jews can not be dismissed as solely race related, definitely a certain religious aspect to it.

World War II was non-religious. The Jews were one of many groups who were killed in huge numbers by Germany in the name of racial purity.

An estimated 5 to 6 million Jews were killed - compare that with an estimated 4.5 to 8 million Russian civilians whom the Germans killed, not to mention millions of others killed due to race, sexuality, political orientation etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

5.7 million (78%) of the 7.3 million Jews in German dominated Europe died in the war. Estimates for Holocaust deaths range between 5.1 to 6.0 million Jews.

Other groups persecuted and killed by the Nazis included: 130,000 to 500,000 Gypsies; 150,000 to 200,000 handicapped persons ; 2.6 to 3 million Soviet prisoners of war; 1.8 to 1.9 million Poles ; 4.5 to 8.2 million Soviet civilians; about 10,000 Gay men; about 1,000 Jehovah's Witnesses; between 1,000 to 2,000 Roman Catholic clergy and an unknown number of Freemasons. "The fate of black people from 1933 to 1945 in Nazi Germany and in German-occupied territories ranged from isolation to persecution, sterilization, medical experimentation, incarceration, brutality, and murder." During the Nazi era Communists, Socialists, Social Democrats, and trade union leaders were victims of Nazi persecution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims

@eliotness - Do you deny the existence of the jewish race? I only ask as one of my exes denied outright that there is a jewish race.

I don't think hitler was acting out becuase he wanted to be a good christian in a very misguided way. If you were a jew who had converted to christianity he'd still have had you in a concentration camp. Or that's how it seemed when I studied it.

and evers that quote above agrees with what I said.

I have no desire to debate the existence of god.

i still don't see why you need to be so aggressive and condescending

I think EVERS will experience a road to Damascus type event at some piont in his life.