General Discussion: Religion thread


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billybrown
billybrown avatar

3208 posts since 30/9/07

4 Apr 2010 23:06
eliotness wrote: I am completely against the points EVERS is making, however, billy brown, world war 2 non religious?

I don't mean to poke holes in your argument but there were a specific bunch of people getting put in the concentration camps.

I don't understand why the majority of atheists are taking such a closed minded, elitist and aggressive view point.

That "atheism is the new fundamentalism" debate looks really interesting bresone. seems to apply a bit to this thread.

I thought it kicked off when hitler marched into poland. He wasn't much into religion, more a racist. I don't belive it to be a "religous" war.
stelfox
stelfox avatar

8488 posts since 11/3/09

4 Apr 2010 23:07
I don't think imperialism is based on religion? And also Hitler was far more of a racist - he hated the jewish race (as well as slavs.. and communists).
eliotness
eliotness avatar

1506 posts since 1/2/09

4 Apr 2010 23:10
the "meaning" of wars aren't limited to what caused them.

although, yes, it wasn't started by religion, the events that took place during world war two were massively involved with religion.
eliotness
eliotness avatar

1506 posts since 1/2/09

4 Apr 2010 23:11
not saying it was by any means a religious war.

but religion definitely played a big part in some of the events that took place.

stelfox
stelfox avatar

8488 posts since 11/3/09

4 Apr 2010 23:16
I disagree, the holocaust (admittedly a terrible terrible atrocity) involved religion but much more so racism. The rest of the war wasn't religiously based iirc (from history lessons and reading, not from personal experience Laughing out loud )

I do realise quite a few wars historically did involve religion, and in the build up to WWII the church turned a blind eye to everything (even though I don't believe religion has a place in politics it seems off). As well as things like burning of heretics there's a lot of evil done in god's name (billhicks that's a good quote).
bill
bill avatar

4931 posts since 5/8/09

4 Apr 2010 23:20
eliotness wrote: I don't understand why the majority of atheists are taking such a closed minded, elitist and aggressive view point.

It's impossible to be rational with people who believe *without shadow of doubt* in the irrational.

I mean, you know what you believe is true, but you can't prove it, any of it, you just believe it or feel it because of what you read in a book that was written a few years ago or because of what you've been told. You have to understand how super frustrating it is for someone on the other side who believes only in reality? Wouldn't take it personally, you're hardly alone.
eliotness
eliotness avatar

1506 posts since 1/2/09

4 Apr 2010 23:21
i think it was race AND religion that fueled the holocaust.





stelfox
stelfox avatar

8488 posts since 11/3/09

4 Apr 2010 23:24
But surely it is possible to accept the belief of others as a fact and discuss the rest of it rather than attacking. Both sides know in the end the base difference of belief vs non-belief isn't going to change. Nothing in this thread is going to change my base belief in god, just as no atheist is going to start believing. I think it'd be disrespectful and insulting for either side to think that they might be able to change the other in that way.
fontelroy
fontelroy avatar

3200 posts since 14/6/08

4 Apr 2010 23:26
may i first point to godwins law in reference to this argument

secondly religion was not the cause of WW2, both russia and germany invaded poland for imperial territorial gains and the holocaust was purely an offshoot of WW2 as borders closed and Hitler looked for an immediate solution, it definetly did not cause the second world war
eliotness
eliotness avatar

1506 posts since 1/2/09

4 Apr 2010 23:27
billhicks wrote:
eliotness wrote: I don't understand why the majority of atheists are taking such a closed minded, elitist and aggressive view point.

It's impossible to be rational with people who believe *without shadow of doubt* in the irrational.

I mean, you know what you believe is true, but you can't prove it, any of it, you just believe it or feel it because of what you read in a book that was written a few years ago or because of what you've been told. You have to understand how super frustrating it is for someone on the other side who believes only in reality? Wouldn't take it personally, you're hardly alone.

yeah thing is, I am non religious, I am on "the other side".
I don't get frustrated and i don't try to hypocritically press my ideas onto others, I just try stay open minded and appreciate other peoples point of view and the benefits of religion (and the numerous negative aspects of it).
that's why i'm surprised at the attitude of all the other atheists in the thread.

stelfox
stelfox avatar

8488 posts since 11/3/09

4 Apr 2010 23:29
It's because they don't have god in their life Eye-wink
eliotness
eliotness avatar

1506 posts since 1/2/09

4 Apr 2010 23:31
fontelroy wrote: may i first point to godwins law in reference to this argument

secondly religion was not the cause of WW2, both russia and germany invaded poland for imperial territorial gains and the holocaust was purely an offshoot of WW2 as borders closed and Hitler looked for an immediate solution, it definetly did not cause the second world war

nobody said it was started by religion, obviously it wasn't.

i'm saying that the mass killing of jews can not be dismissed as solely race related, definitely a certain religious aspect to it.
swiftus
swiftus avatar

1835 posts since 1/7/09

4 Apr 2010 23:33
EVERS wrote: my mind is open and you're into religion, therefore you cannot have an open mind, as you are conditioned to fit into 'rules' made up my someone else.

come back and have a debate with me when you have your own views on things and not those made up by organisations that start wars and fiddle with kids.

This just proves you're a knob. Nowhere have I stated that I'm religious in any sort of way in my correspondence to you, it's just something that you've assumed. I'm an atheist as well, I just don't feel the need to assert my views in some self-righteous crusade like you.
andymakesglasses
andymakesglasses avatar

20707 posts since 26/1/06

4 Apr 2010 23:35
eliotness wrote: I am completely against the points EVERS is making, however, billy brown, world war 2 non religious?

I don't mean to poke holes in your argument but there were a specific bunch of people getting put in the concentration camps.

World War II was non-religious. The Jews were one of many groups who were killed in huge numbers by Germany in the name of racial purity.

An estimated 5 to 6 million Jews were killed - compare that with an estimated 4.5 to 8 million Russian civilians whom the Germans killed, not to mention millions of others killed due to race, sexuality, political orientation etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

5.7 million (78%) of the 7.3 million Jews in German dominated Europe died in the war. Estimates for Holocaust deaths range between 5.1 to 6.0 million Jews.

Other groups persecuted and killed by the Nazis included: 130,000 to 500,000 Gypsies; 150,000 to 200,000 handicapped persons ; 2.6 to 3 million Soviet prisoners of war; 1.8 to 1.9 million Poles ; 4.5 to 8.2 million Soviet civilians; about 10,000 Gay men; about 1,000 Jehovah's Witnesses; between 1,000 to 2,000 Roman Catholic clergy and an unknown number of Freemasons. "The fate of black people from 1933 to 1945 in Nazi Germany and in German-occupied territories ranged from isolation to persecution, sterilization, medical experimentation, incarceration, brutality, and murder." During the Nazi era Communists, Socialists, Social Democrats, and trade union leaders were victims of Nazi persecution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims
fontelroy
fontelroy avatar

3200 posts since 14/6/08

4 Apr 2010 23:35
eliotness wrote:
fontelroy wrote: may i first point to godwins law in reference to this argument

secondly religion was not the cause of WW2, both russia and germany invaded poland for imperial territorial gains and the holocaust was purely an offshoot of WW2 as borders closed and Hitler looked for an immediate solution, it definetly did not cause the second world war

nobody said it was started by religion, obviously it wasn't.

i'm saying that the mass killing of jews can not be dismissed as solely race related, definitely a certain religious aspect to it.

there wasnt a religious aspect thought was there, hitler wanted to create a master RACE, he saw the jewish people (the isrealites) as a RACE not a religion, same way he discriminated against gypsies and blacks, he even went so far as to get rid of christian holidays in germany and replace them with pagan ones as he hated religion so much
stelfox
stelfox avatar

8488 posts since 11/3/09

4 Apr 2010 23:37
@eliotness - Do you deny the existence of the jewish race? I only ask as one of my exes denied outright that there is a jewish race.

I don't think hitler was acting out becuase he wanted to be a good christian in a very misguided way. If you were a jew who had converted to christianity he'd still have had you in a concentration camp. Or that's how it seemed when I studied it.

and evers that quote above agrees with what I said.
EVERS
EVERS avatar

8580 posts since 2/7/06

4 Apr 2010 23:39
Farrell wrote: But surely it is possible to accept the belief of others as a fact and discuss the rest of it rather than attacking. Both sides know in the end the base difference of belief vs non-belief isn't going to change. Nothing in this thread is going to change my base belief in god, just as no atheist is going to start believing. I think it'd be disrespectful and insulting for either side to think that they might be able to change the other in that way.

so you only want the debate to be on your terms?

i dont think so….

its a subject that invites and demands robust discussion. if you haven't the stomach for it, step off. please don't attempt to prescribe what the rules should be though, as that's disrespectful to those who can handle it without restrictions (much like a life without organised religion)
stelfox
stelfox avatar

8488 posts since 11/3/09

4 Apr 2010 23:42
I have no desire to debate the existence of god.

i still don't see why you need to be so aggressive and condescending
Guido
Guido avatar

12884 posts since 20/4/05

4 Apr 2010 23:46
This thread has made me really warm to EVERS.
Mr X
Mr X avatar

7053 posts since 12/7/07

4 Apr 2010 23:46
I think EVERS will experience a road to Damascus type event at some piont in his life.